june 2013
Michal Jakubowsky: Recently you have celebrated Urbano's 10 birthday. What was Urbano like as a puppy? Did you think at that time that he will be so successfull? How did he diffrentiate from other males?
Massimo Santini: Urbano as a puppy was special at first glance. He grow up in full harmony with my son Francesco. He attracted attention due to his head and expression but also to his self-confident character. He was dominant among his litter-mates. Yes, I must say that as a puppy he was "special". If I have to compare Urbano with other famous males that lived with us (Ch. Nero del Diamante Nero, Indio del Diamante Nero, Moro del Diamante Nero and Victor Vito del Rio Bianco) there is no difference in terms of sentimanental value. I loved all these dogs the same for their great advantages and imperfections. We can say that Urbano is a real "destination" at our kennel, work that we started over 30 years ago in co-operation with Mauro Favero, del Rio Bianco kennel. Indeed, we can consider Urbano as a "closing" of genetic circle of Diamante Nero and del Rior Bianco. First three generations consist of dogs of these two kennels and led us to this result - Urbano.
M.J: Over the years Urbano won many shows, which are the most important to you?
M.S: (...) Of course, there are the most spectacular results of Urbano's career but I want to mention an anecdote which many people may not know. It is commonly known that in Italy the highest grade in Youth Class is MB (very good). There were only few exceptions in Italy when Exc (excellent) grade was given to a dog from Youth Class. It happened to Tequila Mali del Citone and Gamon di Campovalano but Urbano was also qualified as excellent by Florindo Coppo and that was very special for me together with other important winning in Youth Class - Giovane Promessa AIAD and IDC Youth Winner.
M.J: How many matings Urbano had so far? Can you give some examples of his progeny which have special meaning to you?
M.S: So far Urbano had more than 300 matings with females who came from all part of the world. I always say that it was possible to achieve such high figure because of two reasons:
1. Many breeders considered Urbano as natural evolution and continuation of Nitro del Rio Bianco;
2. Fact that at the age of 16 months old was father of famous Pathos delle Querce Nere.
I reckon these were main reasons why breeders started to mate with Urbano. Obviously, Pathos delle Querce Nere has to be mentioned as starting point of Urbano's career as a producer. Another special progeny of Urbano is Sant Keal Zeus born in Russia and he was important to increase awareness in this country of Urbano's value as producer. In next years other russian breeders were coming to mate with Urbano on large scale. Especially, Pride of Russia kennel with their different females what resulted in famous dogs like Pride of Russia Ferro, Pride or Russia Urano and some young dogs like Pride of Russia Angel or Pride of Russia Black Hermes. They are all successfull at show-rings in Russia. One more special dog I would like to emphasize among Urbano's progeny is Nibbio del Diamante Nero which has given me the most important goal in my breeding activity. Nibbio as a show Champion and the one who passed german character test - Korung achieved something I always dreamed about. Last but not least - Toscano del Diamante Nero - Youth World Winner 2013. This young dog has all great features to continue his fahter's legacy. I focused only on few examples of Urbano's progeny. If I would have to describe more than 50 dogs from all countries I would have to cover several pages. At the gallery of Urbano's progeny you can view all his sons:
M.J: Having said of Urbano's 300 matings, you have complete knowledge about his breeding potential. According to your knowledge, what females are the right ones for Urbano?
M.S: Urbano has it's genotype based on Diamante Nero and Rio Bianco blood-line and this is the reason why his progeny are easily recognized in eyes of experts, especially due to head type which can be seen in almost all matings Urbano had till today. From my experience, I had seen and evaluated best sons of Urbano and I have to say that almost always Urbano expressed best of himself in combination with blood-lines from del Citone / Prinz v. Norden Stamm. Results from this combinations have best qualities from both blood-lines and these two lines matched together are really successfull. As an example I can mention AIAD Siegerin from 2012 - Azzura Borboni del Mitreo (Urbano del Diamante Nero - Sheva Shay del Citone). What's more, over last three years I noticed that some breeders are using inbreeding methos on Urbano's line and it seems tot me that it work out pretty well. At this point I need to mention IDC Sieger 2012 - Quickstep King of Darkness (Ale' Alamos del Citone - Come As You Are Vesta) who was born from Urbano's daugher and Urbano's nephew. I think that this method will be widely used by breeders who want to have Urbano's genotype well established in their breeding.
M.J: Looking backwards at pedigrees we can notice a tendency of successfull litters between daughters of Nitro del Rio Bianco (e.g Giada di Villa Conte, Rivien & Reny of Tanderberg) with males out of del Citone kennel. Do you think that same trend may refer to daughters of Urbano? Would you recommend to Urbano's progeny owners to consider mating with del Citone males for their females?
M.S: As I have said before, Quickstep King of Darkness (Ale' Alamos del Citone - Come As You Are Vesta) is an answer to your question as CAYA Vesta is Urbano's daughter. I think this way you can follow in breeding. However, do not forget what I said at the bgining of the interview when I refered to Prinz v. Norden Stamm
(Baron Nike Renewal, Fedor del Nasi). Personally, I worked hard on this issue and if you pay attention to pedigree of Toscano there are some proofs of my words.
Yes, I have conviction that lines of Diamante Nero / Rio Bianco are really good mix with lines of del Citone and Prinz v. Norden Stamm.
M.J: Looking at Urbano's pedigree, what dogs are in great part responsible for Urbano's conformation?
M.S: I think Urbano is strongly affected in his genetic by two fundamental males in terms of his genotype. The first is Indo del Diamante Nero who is responsible for strong head. Second is Graaf Quirinus v. Neerlands Stam who certainly brought into del Diamante Nero and del Rio Bianco line better general conformation.
M.J: Do you recommend inbreeding on Urbano? Yes or no and why?
M.S: I can say a lot on this issue but I repeat what I have said before. For me a good breeding project is to implement blood of Urbano through females who
can fulfill combination Citone-Urbano and Barone Nike/Fedor-Urbano. This is what I think in terms of breeding-strategy.
M.J: Nowadays we can observe interesting situation when part of european dobermann breeders are using in their breeding american-pinschers. What do you think on it?
M.S: I have spent several years for research of american dobermann. I have to say that I appreciate their elegance, dryness and almost always good and typical head expression. In the past there were attempts to combine best american and european blood-lines. Commonly known case of Marienburg kennel which obtained good results from v. Franckenhorst line. This project was continued in 1995 by Dr. Pezzano who decided to cross Tequila Mali del Citone with Holmrun Phabio of Marienburg. Almost nobody knows about another attempt which was done with help of great breeder Jenns Kollenberg more than 20 years ago.
...
This is my own point of view, don't say that it is absolute truth. Just my personal opinion. In recent years I see that these efforts are still present and other breeders are trying to realize this project. I don't want to re-call certain names of dogs but to be honest, although I see some good results, I think that
there is still a lot to be done and complicated to achieve the level of best european dobermanns. I need to say that aspect which makes me worried is the character which I find average. There is genetical distance between character of european dobermanns. Nevertheless, I have always considered evolution as fundamental aspect of every breed development and I wish these breeders to eachieve their goals.
M.J: Did you consider to use american dobermanns in your own breeding programme?
M.S: Well, I thought about it but never had courage. May be in the future. Never say never.
(...)
M.J: Character is one of the funamental features of the dobermann breed. American-pinschers miss this point in comparison to european dobermanns. Don't you think that mix between dobermanns and american-pinschers is responsible act?
M.S: I don't have knowledge to give valuable comment. I have seen dogs from american blood-lines who had character problems but I also think that there are some exceptions. I would suggest to pay special attention to this aspect when one breeder takes decission to mix american and european dobermanns. This is my advice. It is also a fact that in American breed is controlled by their own club which does not recognize official standard of Dobermann Verein. American standard recognize dogs who have lack of teeth. However, there is a Club in North America called ADA who acts accordingly to Dobermann Verein. I can say with top certainty if official standard of Dobermann Verein is also recognized by UDC Club. I would like to underline efforts which are made in American with respect to official standar including organzing character test - ZTP.
M.J: You mentioned the ZTP test. Do you think it has to be changed in order to be more difficult? Today ZTP does not seem to be an achievement anymore.
M.S: I think that we still need the ZTP test. I don't have in mind Germany or Italy where the quality of average character is stable for a long period of time. ZTP is needed in countries where it has short tradition of only few years and there is obvious reason to keep this test active for several years or more. Personally, I consider Korung test as a goal to be achieved in breeding. This is great proof of dobermann quality by all standards. I would like about future where major dobermanns and stud males which are used in breeding should have the Korung test passed. It will help to decrease the division withing dobermann breed on working dobermanns and those who have the "look". This ways of diverge are completely wrong and stay in opposition to breed standard.
M.J: Future of dobermann breeding is in danger due to cropping and docking ban which is now being spread to other countries. We all know what is caused to dobermann breed in countries like Belgium of The Netherlands. Will we see in nearest future Diamante Nero dobermann with long ears and tails?
M.S: There is no escape from this threat. Unfortunatelly, situation will be irreversible when the standard will be changed. Perhaps there was something that could be done better in the past, also in media when it was popular to figh for "fake animal rights" in 80s and especially in Germany. What
M.J: Do you consider as mistake when standard will be changed by IDC and dobermann will be considered as dog with natural ears and tail?
M.S: These actions seem to be unnecessary. I think that IDC Committee will stick to what is required by FCI Standard of the dobermann breed.
M.J: Right, in fact the right to change standard belong to DV. Do you consider the change as necessary act?
M.S: Let me repeat - the answer will be given if there will be change of the standard from DV and FCI. At the moment we will see both cropped dogs and natural. Of course, if you want to know what I personally prefer, the answer is status quo and to see both croped and natural dogs. This is my own opinion.
M.J: Quali altre minacce pensi che ci siano per la razza dobermann? Che bisogna fare per migliorarla?
M.S: Io penso che il lavoro, fatto in questi ultimi 30 anni, sotto il profilo caratteriale attraverso il test dello ZTP, è decisamente migliorato e certamente questo lavoro và continuato con lo stesso impegno profuso fino ad oggi, estendendo il test dello ZTP in tutti quei paesi che ancora non selezionano la razza avvalendosi di questo test.
Credo anche che sotto questo aspetto vada fatto un significativo sforzo, per favorire l'ampliamento a tecnici giudici specialisti della razza, ricorrendo anche a esperti residenti nelle nazioni , dove questo importante test stà diffondendosi.
Detto questo, la cosa che purtroppo riguarda il futuro della razza Dobermann, è la tragedia della DCM.
Purtroppo questa è una piaga, che andrà affrontata a viso aperto con tutte le forze a disposizione e sopratutto con l'aiuto di tutti.
Importanti inziative che alcuni CLUB, come in primis stà facendo l' AIAD, atte a prevenire ed isolare questa malattia, sono degne della massima attenzione e del massimo rispetto da parte di tutti.
Sono convinto che queste iniziative porteranno ad un miglioramento generale sul controllo di questa terribile patologia.
M.J: Guardando indietro possiamo notare come i cani tipo Gino Gomez, Graaf Quirinus, Baron Nike o Fedor del Nasi hanno influenzato la razza. Come ha influenzato Urbano la razza moderna dei dobermann?
M.S: Graaf Quirinus Van Neerlands Stam secondo il mio punto di vista, ha chiuso negli anni 80/90 in modo eccellente il cerchio genetico di Hertog Alpha v le Dobry, generando essenzialmente due linee basilari per l'evoluzione del Dobermann moderno, parlando dei suoi due figli più rappresentativi, cioè di Gamon di Campovalano e di Jivago . v.h. Wantij.
Ancora oggi si possono vedere loro indelebili segnali genetici , nei più importanti pedegree del mondo.
Sempre dal mio punto di vista negli anni 2000 , la vera novità genetica sarà rappresentata, da Gino Gomez del Citone, Baron Nike Renewal e naturalmente Nitro del Rio Bianco.
E' evidente e sotto gli occhi di tutto il mondo, che la prosecuzione genetica di questi tre soggetti è continuata e stà continuando, in Baron Nike con Fedor del Nasi, in Nitro con Urbano del Diamante Nero, in Gino Gomez con Alamo del Citone.
Come ho affermato all'inizio io sono convinto che l'evoluzione della razza Dobermann nel prossimo decennio, attraverserà ed evolverà attraverso intrecciamenti genetici fra questi cani.
M.J: Prima hai menzionato le regole riguardanti gli accoppiamenti di Urbano con varie femmine. Poco fa il tuo nuovo cane - Toscano ha cominciato la sua carriera vincendo la Mostra Mondiale. Essendo il figlio di Urbano e il nipote di Fedor del Nasi quali pensi siano le migliori femmine per Toscano?
M.S: Intanto, cominciamo con il dire, che Toscano sarà un nostro nuovo Riproduttore, quando lui avrà superato il test dello ZTP, ora è prematuro parlare del suo futuro come Riproduttore, per ora è solo una giovane promessa.
Vede,in Italia, ormai è molto radicata l'idea di accoppiare solo soggetti che hanno superato il test dello ZTP, anche se questo non è obbligatorio per avere il pedegree, è...una sorta di presa di coscienza da parte di molti allevatori, molto importante da rispettare.
M.J: Cosa vorresti consigliare ai nuovi allevatori? Quali condizioni deve avere una buona femmina d'allevamento?
M.S: E' assolutamente fondamentale, cominciare ad allevare con una femmina ben definita nel suo genotipo, e su linee di sangue ben fissate geneticamente.
Io ricordo che negli anni 80, quando acquistai la mia capostipite Julia v Nymphenburg ( Gildo v Jura x Berenike v Nymphenburg) quando lei aveva già due anni di età, fu realmente un grosso sforzo economico per le mie finanze, ma presi questa decisione, perchè attraverso i miei studi di ricerca che avevo fatto negli anni precedenti, capivo che se volevo una solida base di sangue su cui progettare il futuro del mio allevamento, dovevo partire con una femmina, ben consolidata nel suo genotipo, e per me quella era veramente una buona base da cui partire.
Consiglio anche i neo giovani allevatori che vogliono intraprendere la strada di selezionare questa stupenda razza, di non avere fretta....ma di studiare molto prima....studiare pedegree, capire come certi risultati sono arrivati....frequentare solo i più importanti Show specializzati , e anche se possibile fare conoscenza e amicizia con importanti Allevatori, per parlare con loro della loro esperienza allevatoriale.
Solo dopo aver fatto questi importanti passi....forse...arriva il momento per acquistare una buona fattrice e iniziare.... questa Fantastica avventura.....
